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Changing the default tickrate on servers
- spydee - spydee - Wed 6 Apr 07:47
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Reply | Hi,
This post is about changing a rule that probably should have been changed awhile ago. As any american/canadian/other high ping player knows, playing on a low tickrate server with high ping is frustrating and annoying. The biggest problem is dodging, mass warping when going near players, and other funky behaviour like shooting through people. For anyone who's in europe and hasn't experienced this, play on the rot server at unreal://72.51.60.94:7777 to experience this for yourself.
Why change tickrate? It should be smoother for europeans but especially smoother for high pingers such as americans. it is basically how often the server updates player positions. at times which updates are not occurring player positions are estimated based on their previous velocity by the client. this means if people are moving quickly, a shot which seems to register on your screen can actually seem to shoot through them and not be a hit. the following pictures illustrate this:
tickrate 5: http://wiki.unrealadmin.org/Image:Tr1_005.jpg
tickrate 30: http://wiki.unrealadmin.org/Image:Tr1_030.jpg
tickrate 100: http://wiki.unrealadmin.org/Image:Tr1_100.jpg
in north america we've been through this and all our servers are at 60-ish tickrate. by doing this you are allowing more competition in the cups and ladders because more americans will be inclined to play since it will be smoother for us. it will also be smoother for you, as we've experienced, as long as no super low netspeeds are used. for details please see this link: http://wiki.unrealadmin.org/Netspeed_Tutorial_(UT)
some common misconceptions:
1. it alters the hitbox: no, it alters how often player positions are updating, so it alters where the hitbox really is (in a good way) when you are trying to kill someone. This is not 1999 anymore, servers and clients have plenty of bandwidth and cpu power to deal with higher tickrates and higher netspeeds.
2. if it ain't broke don't fix it: if people used this reason for everything we'd still be in the stone age. and for high pingers, it definitely IS broken. in the time where dialup was popular, low netspeed and tickrate is pretty much required due to bandwidth limitations. it's also easier on server cpus calculating all the data. nowadays, it's absolutely no problem and keeping a low tickrate doesn't make sense anymore.
3. it takes more skill with low tickrate: it takes more skill with 250 ping aswell (or 5 tickrate), but no one wants a 250 ping league do they? a tickrate of 20 means the server updates positions every 50ms, (a tickrate of 5 means 200ms) so your delay could possibly increase by that much. who would want that? who would want mass warping when going near players, running over flags that don't return, shooting through people when bouncing on pads, etc. making a smoother game if possible is not a bad thing, and it is possible by increasing tickrate.
so, please post in support of this if you support it. if not i challenge people to post reasons why the current rule should stay. i feel that a proper discussion of this is pretty relevant and long overdue. i encourage players to try out higher tickrates on their servers in funwars etc. (with different netspeeds if needed) to atleast see how it feels before posting. we use 10000-ish netspeed in NA with 60ish tickrate. please try it.
thanks,
your friends from across the pond |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- spydee - spydee - Wed 6 Apr 07:48
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Reply | | reserved for now |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- InfamousRaider - e2  - Wed 6 Apr 07:55
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Reply | | I fully support this motion and I am shocked it has taken this long to seriously consider changing the tickrate. For me the key reason is that this is not 1999 anymore, servers in today's age can run 5 instances of UT at 100 tickrate no problem. In North America we have been using 65-75 tickrate for at least 5 years and it makes gameplay significantly smoother for players of every ping. This really is a no brainer. I know that every north American player will support this and I hope that it can help to increase the community and fuel competition. Many of you have joined and played in our leagues and you know that there are many active players over here that could really help revitalize competition. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- BiGbOsS - BiGbOsS - Wed 6 Apr 08:05
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Reply | | Im in support for a higher tickrate. Being an American player i understand the difference between a hightick rate server and a low tickrate server. A lot of potentially good Canadian/ American ut players will not participate in these cups purely because they dont want to deal with the low tickrate/highping. This has my vote! |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- [RNG]DF - [RNG]  - Wed 6 Apr 08:06
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Reply | Bout time we entered the 21st century !
Only tried tickrate 100 max, huuuge decrease in visible ping for me and ofc less warping, shooting through ur opponent couse he´s actually not where he´s suposed to be  ( see TR 5-30-100 ) |
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Reply | | good presentation spydee, rule should have been changed a long time ago |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- *USA*rootsoft - USA - Wed 6 Apr 10:45
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Reply | | Listen to this man. This should have been done a while ago |
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Reply | | This should have been changed the moment high speed internet became widely available. This isn't even a debate anymore. Spydee for prez! |
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Reply | | This should've been done in 2003, but it's never too late to change now. Everything that spydee posted is the absolute truth. There is nothing but benefits to be made from this change, high ping or not. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- k0n - k0n - Wed 6 Apr 12:01
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Reply | | I'd be more inclined to participate in clanbase matches if the TR was adjusted. A low TR with a high ping makes things unnecessarily difficult. I'm interested in what the arguments are to maintain the status quo? |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- rain - e2 - Wed 6 Apr 12:14
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Reply | Absolutely agree. There is no reason as to why the tickrate should be as low as it is especially if increasing it can increase the quality of gaming and the enviroment (and participation by bringing high pinging players into a slowly declining scene).
As being an admin for the American leauge we have many European players that we have introduced to our servers/pug channel from numerous countries of Europe that have stated they enjoy playing on an American server (even with their ping higher) due to it being way smoother (higher tickrate).
This is definitely something that ClanBase should consider changing to improve the UT scene for the better. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- [SiN]Nyuu - [SiN]  - Wed 6 Apr 14:22
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Reply | | Agree, I s'pose. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Junkyardboy - e2 - Wed 6 Apr 14:34
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Reply | | Even if by chance 75 tickrate causes the server to lag by fluke, you could always go back to the original 30? It's not like theya re trying to set it in stone for 75, but if it's better, you might as well, and the only way of really knowing is by trying it out |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Jackal - CSLA - Wed 6 Apr 15:35
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Reply | I've been saying what you are - to higher the TR, for about 8 years ... but some people seem to think they understand the concept way better, so on one occasion the servers were set to only 20 - 25 TR by CB rule, as a very bright decision made out of an excessive knowledge of networking and servers' performance  . After that point I've stopped trying to explain.
Luckily admins have had changed and TR is back to 30 at least.
The default TR by Epic is set to 35 and that was at the times of P2s and slow conns. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- M5>TERROR - M5 - Wed 6 Apr 20:49
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Reply | | change it |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- -Penny//unL- - unL - Thu 7 Apr 00:29
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Reply | Completely agree, not only americans suffered from this, basically everyone with a ping higher than 100...
Well written spydee! |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- acro - acro - Thu 7 Apr 01:01
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Reply | | Agree. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- DAH - DAH - Thu 7 Apr 01:02
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Reply | | agreed. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Dewsick - e2 - Thu 7 Apr 01:05
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Reply | I agree with this totally, I've noticed this from playing in american servers.
A) It makes the ping a hell of a lot better for euro/NA players
B) The smoothness is very noticable, shots connect very well
C) This is perhaps overdue, we all complain about shots 'going through' and all that lark
I think this is a great idea and I hope 100% this gets enforced. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Bear - Bear - Thu 7 Apr 02:18
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Reply | | Agree |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Apoc - [AC] - Thu 7 Apr 03:34
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Reply | | Being the Sup for all UT ladders i will of course support any new ladders but i have to convince the ladder chiefs, 1 main problem is we currently have 8 UT ladders all with activity of zero and the iCTFzp and nonzp ladder has a rule which states you can have agree on a different tickrate if both clans agree. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- InfamousRaider - e2 - Thu 7 Apr 04:18
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Reply | | Honestly there is no need for a new ladder with 65 tickrate just change the rules on existing ladders to have a 65 tickrate by default but teams can use a different tickrate if both teams agree. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- n0b - n0b - Thu 7 Apr 04:56
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Reply | | Agreed. |
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Reply | | im agree with this . |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- LeeBe - LeeBe - Thu 7 Apr 06:36
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Reply | I asked AnthraX about this earlier
(23:13:08) (@anth) ok
(23:13:39) (@anth) one more misconception
(23:13:56) (@anth) "a tickrate of 20 means the server updates positions every 50ms"
(23:14:01) (@anth) that was in the top post
(23:14:05) (@anth) this is true
(23:14:10) (@anth) but only for a tickrate of 20
(23:14:24) (@anth) it is not true for a lot of other common tickrates
(23:15:00) (@anth) after every tick, the main server loop is paused for 1000/<tickrate> milliseconds
(23:15:14) (@anth) the loop resumes when the kernel wakes it up
(23:15:41) (@anth) but the kernel can only wake up sleeping threads when it is actually controlling the cpu
(23:16:00) (@anth) a common misconception is that the kernel always has full control of the cpu
(23:16:06) (@anth) other processes can interfere
(23:16:37) (@anth) if some other proces is executing stuff then the kernel's scheduler cannot execute to see if it has to wake up sleeping threads
(23:16:56) (@anth) to prevent other processes from infinitely claiming the cpu, we use PICs
(23:17:00) (@anth) programmable interrupt controllers
(23:17:13) (@anth) every X milliseconds, the PIC will cause a timer interrupt
(23:17:20) (@anth) and the kernel will regain control over the CPU
(23:17:34) (@anth) which in turn allows the kernel to wake up the main server loop of your UT server
(23:18:00) (@anth) but the kernel needs to configure the PIC
(23:18:13) (@anth) it needs to tell the PIC how often it wants to receive such an interrupt
(23:18:16) (@anth) by default
(23:18:28) (@anth) the kernel receives a timer interrupt every 5 ms
(23:18:31) (@anth) that is constant
(23:18:42) (@anth) the kernel is garantueed to get full cpu control every 5ms
(23:18:46) (@anth) in other words
(23:18:51) (@anth) the only garantuee there is
(23:19:19) (@anth) is that the kernel can wake up your sleeping server thread once every 5ms (if it is needed)
(23:19:26) (@anth) so
(23:19:44) (@anth) as long as that 1000/<tickrate> sleeping period
(23:19:51) (@anth) is a multiple of 5ms
(23:20:00) (@anth) the ticks will be executed at regular intervals
(23:20:05) (@anth) if it is not a multiple of 5ms
(23:20:16) (@anth) you cannot be sure that the intervals will be regular
(23:20:46) (@anth) take for example
(23:20:49) (@anth) tickrate 30
(23:20:52) (@anth) horrible choice
(23:21:04) (@anth) 1000/tickrate = 33.33 in that case
(23:21:13) (@anth) so the server wants to be woken up every 33.33ms
(23:21:16) (@anth) to execute a tick
(23:21:22) (@anth) with standard PIC settings
(23:21:36) (@anth) the kernel cannot garantuee that it will actually wake the server up at that rate
(23:21:51) (@anth) if _any_ other proces is executing
(23:22:02) (@anth) you'll get stuff like
(23:22:08) (@anth) first you're woken up after 30ms
(23:22:11) (@anth) then after 40
(23:22:16) (@anth) then after 30 again
(23:22:18) (@anth) then after 30
(23:22:20) (@anth) then after 40
(23:22:43) (@anth) then at some point those other processes are less busy
(23:22:48) (@anth) so it can be 33.33ms
(23:22:56) (@anth) long and boring story short
(23:23:05) (@anth) a stable tickrate is also important
(23:23:21) (@anth) but you must assume that the PIC timer interrupt interval will be 5ms
(23:23:37) (@anth) (unless you run TickFix or TickFix2, then it must be a multiple of 1ms)
(23:23:54) (@anth) so yes, a higher tickrate does make sense
(23:23:59) (@anth) it will consume more bandwidth
(23:24:03) (@anth) but it will feel smoother
(23:24:19) (@anth) but 1000/<tickrate> _MUST_ be a multiple of 5ms
(23:24:30) (@anth) tickrate 20 meets that criterion
(23:24:37) (@anth) TR 30 does not
so best choice for a stable tickrate on a linux server or windows without tickfix would be 25, 40, 50 or 100 |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Dj`Qtax - Dj`  - Thu 7 Apr 13:15
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Reply | Based on this, if the server main loop sleeps after doing its work, for 1000/TR, then time between updates is
T=X+1000/TR+D ms
where X is the time it takes the server to do it's work, and D is the offset caused by the systems imprecise sleep. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Jackal - CSLA - Thu 7 Apr 15:54
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Reply | | great informative post! thx to anth. i wish this was published a few years back. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- chicken- - |H| - Sun 17 Apr 00:54
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Reply | | 100 tickrate on Windows equals about 90 on linux. I don't know the technical details but linux doesn't handle tickrates properly to beginwith, so how does that effect this equation? |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- m3ss - ? - Thu 7 Apr 11:57
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Reply | | I agree. Having played for many years in both communities, a higher tickrate is much better imo, and would be much more conducive to high pingers while improving everyone else's experience. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Dj`Qtax - Dj` - Thu 7 Apr 13:24
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Reply | If it works well, change the limit. I like the sound of 50.
For ZP, which most games are, it's not that relevant tho, as hit calculations are done client side anyway. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- rain - e2 - Thu 7 Apr 22:48
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Reply | | Hit calculations, yes obviously since you need to aim to hit and depending on the jumping of your connection it may not register, but the over-all game will be smoother and a better experience. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- PaetauliK*sigh - ? - Fri 8 Apr 06:55
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Reply | I've played on both settings a fair few times and cant say that I've honestly noticed a real difference in play, I dont really have anything against it being changed.
We can at least try running a cup with those settings (summercup if there is one) which has always been used to test stuff like this out, can only see the numbers increasing with such a decision given the feedback from americans etc, if they'll actually show who knows but if we encounter any problems in a trial cup there would be no reason why we couldn't simply revert back. This is strictly my opinion in terms of nwctf though. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- spydee - spydee - Fri 8 Apr 07:35
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Reply | true that's some good info on tickrate that i didn't know and didn't think about. i'm definately not some pro on this issue so it's good to have input from people like anthrax who obviously seem to know their stuff :P. i'd be down with 50 or 100, whatever seems to be the best
and yea, this change won't make a 20acc player into a 40acc player, but it does decrease the frustration experienced, makes movement more fluid etc. which naturally will improve a player's ability, however much.
also about zp--maybe anthrax can answer that one for certain cause i can't. what i do know is when i set a NA server to low tickrate (15 i think) even with a normally 40 ping the shots atleast seem to 'go through' people still (on zp) even with changing netspeed. definately wasn't as fluid as what i was used to on na or euro, but i mean i didn't look at it frame by frame or anything |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- jMh - JaLLa!! - Fri 8 Apr 11:33
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Reply | | yeah, okay I support this. |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- +kC+d3R - +kC+ - Sat 9 Apr 03:00
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Reply | | Agreed, change it |
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Reply | My Euro friends,
Spydee is completely correct in this matter, as are everyone else that support this. Higher tickrate allows a lot more stability and higher consistency since the lesser delay allows more data to be processed at higher speeds. There is absolutely NO legit reason as to why this change is not fully integrated into future Cups and current ladders. I promise you that it will help everybody from US players to even the current Euros. We are in 2011, ladies and gentlemen. UT servers do NOT require top of the line servers to run (like they once were considered); the amount of bandwidth they require to run is equivalent to a mosquito bite to a fully grown healthy adult. It is nothing but a small red bump covering minuscule portion of the body.
Don't make this issue harder that it has to be. Don't let your personal desire to keep things the way they are get into the way of changing things for the better. If you want this community to become more active, this will go a long way into doing that. Be the change you want to see by starting with this.
Sincerely,
Harsh/blade |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Apoc - [AC] - Sat 9 Apr 04:23
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Reply | | if you read my previous comment it will explain it all, 8 current UT ladders all with zero activity, its not me you have to convince to start a new ladder its me who has to convince ladder chiefs |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- InfamousRaider - e2 - Sat 9 Apr 21:44
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Reply | | WE DONT WANT TO START A NEW LADDER WE WANT TO CHANGE THE RULE |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- x4.`unreal - x4 - Sat 9 Apr 03:15
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Reply | | +1 for higher tickrate |
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RE:Changing the default tickrate on servers
- Vö|ÇåñîÇ  - Vö|ÇåñîÇ - Wed 13 Apr 04:46
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Reply | | I agree to change it. As some us clans have dropped this oc allready. would make them stay in bit longer maybe when having a smoother game. and not taking 30mins to decide on server. then end up moaning about it after. |
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